Transcript
Gina: Until the law considers or recognises legally that animals are sentient and that they are capable of feeling fear, pain and emotional distress, then really just things will stay where they are.
Brian: Hello and welcome to RSPCA Australia's Great and Small Talk, where we discuss the pressing welfare issues animals face in Australia. I'm Brian Daly, and today we're talking about animals that get caught up in domestic violence situations, the impact it has on them, but also the impact they have on the human members of their families affected by domestic violence, and to discuss this very important and timely topic, we're joined by RSPCA Victoria's Community Outreach Manager, Dr Lauren Roberts, RSPCA New South Wales' Senior Manager for Outreach, Education and Crisis Support Programs, Dr Ann-Margret Withers, and esteemed barrister and media personality, Gina Liano. Lauren, Ann-Margret and Gina, welcome to the podcast.
All: Thank you, thanks, thanks for having me.
Brian: Now, domestic violence is a significant issue in Australia, with a recent report indicating 1 in 4 women and 1 in 8 men have experienced violence by an intimate partner or family member since the age of 15. And, of course, the violence affects not only the individuals, but extends to their families as well. And as nearly 70% of households in Australia have pets as part of their families, animals are often the forgotten victims of domestic violence situations. Lauren, Ann-Margret and Gina. Can you talk us through the risks of family violence from an animal welfare perspective?
Gina: So, I prosecute in mainly child abuse cases. So it's a family division of the Children's Court, and have run, you could probably say thousands of cases over a 25 year period, and there are common threads that run through every case that ends up in that court. And family violence is most definitely a very significant part of each case that ends up in that court. The real main issue in that court is the best interest of a child, and in my view, I don't think pets really fall much outside that concept for me. If there's neglect at a property or parents are unable to adequately feed their children, then usually they're not adequately feeding their pet. If there's environmental neglect, you'll often hear stories of how a pet is suffering in those circumstances as well. And they definitely those ... those issues definitely come to me if there needs to be a legal intervention and some orders to help protect the children. You ... often the pets are reported to the RSPCA, or they're removed, or someone steps in to make sure that they're okay as well.
Lauren: Yeah, there's definitely, as Gina mentioned, there's a link between all of these things. And the link between family violence and animal cruelty is well established. A substantial amount of family violence offending involves some form of animal cruelty.
Gina: Most definitely, you'll find that in the family court, and also intervention orders that the perpetrator may physically harm a pet that is definitely part of coercive, controlling behavior. Also, if there's a chaotic lifestyle, I've mentioned that and violence in the home, pets often are neglected. They're left without proper food or water or medical care, and often the victims in those situations feel powerless to care for the pets. They've got restricted finances, or they're not allowed to move, not allowed to take the dog to the vet or the cat to the vet. So they definitely fall within whatever is happening in that home, if it's bad for the children, we can guarantee it's bad for the pet. So if they feel that they are at risk of being harmed, punished or controlled, often, if they have an affection for the pet, the perpetrator will target that pet to try and control them, threatening either to harm or even kill the pet. And so there's often psychological abuse in there as well.
Ann-Margret: Yeah, I mean, animal abuse can be, you know, as you say, psychological abuse. It can be actual physical threats, and the actual physical violence where the animal can be harmed or killed. So it's used to control and intimidate victim survivors assert their supremacy, or, you know, actually make them be silent so that they don't actually complain. And so, as you were saying, yeah, that neglect and financial control is a really big part of it as well. So animals we receive as part of our program, we find that they've not been able to go and get treatment for injuries or even just really basic things as well. And that's a really significant part of the whole picture of domestic violence as well.
Brian: So really, the impact on the animals here is similar to what happens to the humans in they can be physical and psychologically scarred as well in these situations. Is that what you've seen, Lauren in your experience?
Lauren: Yeah, definitely. I think in a household where animals are not safe humans are not safe either, and vice versa. There was some previous research done that found that up to 71% of victim survivors reported that their male partners had threatened, harmed or even killed their pets. And, as we mentioned before, we see a range of cruelty so not necessarily captured in the current legislation, but yeah, psychological harm to the pets, as well as physical or intentional, unaccidental harm and injury as well.
Ann-Margret: And the animals themselves are present in the home, and you know, they're experiencing the violence, the noise, you know that's going on, even if it's as I say, it's not the physical activity of them, and you know, they're sentient beings, so they they take that on and it impacts them as well.
Lauren: Yeah, definitely, the fear and anxiety caused by the perpetrator's actions is likely to cause significant and prolonged suffering to the pets.
Brian: And Gina, you were talking about the idea that individuals may even stay or delay leaving violent situations out of concern for their pets because of these threats that are made against them.
Gina: Well, yes, I mean, I have actually had multiple cases. It's ... it's not an uncommon thing. Often the psychological abuser or the family (inaudible) perpetrator will say, if you leave, I'll harm the animal or the pet, or you can't ever see the pet again. So it's just a way of controlling the person. But what else I think becomes very controlling, or a form of manipulation to trap a victim in not leaving, is just the realisation that, where are they going? Where can she get accommodation with an animal? I've heard this before. Where do I go with the pet? Are there pet-friendly crisis shelters? Is there accommodation? I'm told that research shows that 50% of victims in violent relationships delay leaving or return to abusive partner out of concern for pet safety. So, I mean, that's a fairly big statistic. It's a serious, serious matter. So a lot of places can't accommodate animals, a lot of crisis accommodation, but I understand that RSPCA and Lort Smith do actually have crisis accommodation, and that might be something that you know, that yourlisteners find might be really interested in hearing about, that there are solutions for them.
Brian: Exactly, because if somebody's leaving a situation, they're possibly going to be homeless themselves and their animals. So they do need these services to keep themselves and their companion animals together, and you're mentioning there ... there are services like this that ... that you offer?
Ann-Margret: So we've had a domestic violence service since the early 2000s at RSPCA New South Wales, where we provide temporary accommodation or foster care, as well as providing subsidised veterinary care and assistance with things like impound fees, because that's one thing that can happen as well. If someone leaves and the animal's at home, they might ... the perpetrator may just open the gate and let the animal out onto the street and picked up by council. So that's something we often have to assist with and even transport costs. You know, in the the years that we have run this program. We've actually flown animals from one state to another, and one case even overseas, so just so someone can actually find safety. Ten years ago in New South Wales, there was almost no animal-inclusive human refuges at all. Now there are many more. There are some local councils that run domestic violence programs, there are small not-for-profits, and there are some human refuges that have started to become pet inclusive as well. And the other thing that we ... we've started at RSPCA New South Wales, is a program called Safe Beds, where we actually assist human crisis refuges to become pet inclusive, so building the infrastructure, getting the policies, training staff, so, you know. So that's not all down to us, you know. So within the state, you know, because the need is great, unfortunately, but you know, it's at least by doing that you are trying to create more opportunities for people to leave and because obviously people don't want to be separated from their animals, because they're the support. So unfortunately, with our program, we can't take people in. You know, we're a shelter, but by assisting more human refuges to become pet inclusive, then the whole family can stay together, and that is a much better outcome.
Lauren: I think that's a really key point, Ann-Margret that, as Gina mentioned, there are pet-friendly accommodation providers within Victoria, I wouldn't consider them all inclusive. So what I mean by that is there's restrictions on the type of pets that can stay there, so we need to do better at advocating for more pet-inclusive accommodation, so that we really can help as many people fleeing from these horrible situations as possible. In Victoria, we offer emergency boarding. We want to keep people and pets together, so it's not the best solution, but it is, I guess, an option for people that have no other options. We can provide emergency boarding. We don't have a great capacity here at RSPCA Victoria, so we do work with emergency accommodation providers, and we work with private boarding facilities to try again, to try and help as many people and pets as possible.
Brian: And Gina, what are the laws around that protect animals from family violence or prosecute those who perpetrate it?
Gina: There is actually the Family Violence Protection Act of 2008, and that law recognises the harm or threat to animals as a form of family violence. In section five of that Act, it actually explicitly includes causing or threatening to cause the death or injury of an animal as a tactic of coercive control. So that's really important progress in the law in intervention orders, most certainly in Victoria, I think they call them AVOs in New South Wales, but in Victoria, it's an IVO. A victim can apply for an intervention order, an IVO that includes protection for pets, and the order can prohibit the abuser from harming, taking or approaching the animal, and that helps the victim maintain custody and safety of their pet. So that's getting the perpetrator away from the situation. If someone breaches an intervention order in Victoria by virtue of harming a pet, where they're prohibited from doing that, it can be up to two years in prison and a $24,000 fine, the last time I looked. But it's, I mean, we can have these laws, but who's prosecuting them? How do we police it? These are the things that make a law enforceable. You know, make people who have a propensity to break the law comply with the law. Really is the enforcement. The problem is that a pet really falls under the same parameters as a property. I think to some degree there should be some reforms in relation to the rights around pets. And I also think that there should be some reforms in relation to the consequences of harming a pet. I think there needs to be much more serious. And I think it should be an Australian law like family law. I don't think should be state to state, because now Margret, where you are in New South Wales, the laws are different to Victoria. So I would say that getting it universal across Australia could actually help as well.
Ann-Margret: Yeah, I was just going to say you may be able to help with a little interpretation of this. So a big change for us was in 2021 where animals were included in New South Wales, in ADVOs. And also there was a change in the Crimes Domestic and Personal Violence Act, which included animals in forms of intimidation that explicitly, you know, you can't harm them. And the offense, if there's an offense, we had a maximum penalty of five years, so it prohibited harms through animals as a standard condition.
Gina: In Victoria, since 1986, there has been prosecution under the animal cruelty laws, in any event. I don't know what it is in New South Wales, but certainly under that, the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, where a person can be criminally prosecuted for intentionally harming or killing an animal and failing to provide proper care, is also a penalty, and includes fines and imprisonment up to two years for serious cruelty offenses.
Brian: So there are laws around to protect but as you said before Gina, it's oftentimes the enforcement of those laws that we need to make sure it happens.
Lauren: In my experience as an inspector, if there were intentional violence cases where there was a human victim in the household, in addition to the animal, often Victoria Police would take those cases. So what typically would happen is I would refer that to Victoria Police so that they could actually use other laws to prosecute the offender for harming the human and they would also charge under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act as well.
Brian: Ann-Margret, you've been with the RSPCA for 23 years, and as a vet, what's your experience been of these matters?
Ann-Margret: Well, I mean, I would say probably most of the animals that we see that harm that we see is actually neglect, more so than anything else. But definitely we have had cases where the inspector will go in and an animal has been killed, or there are broken legs and, you know, injuries and that kind of thing as well. So it's the range, I suppose, because we're the RSPCA, people don't tend to bring out, you know, if they've committed a crime, don't bring it in, so that we would suspect it in a vet consult or anything like that. It is literally animals that our inspectors have brought in and, you know, so they're always telltale signs, you know, if there's multiple injuries, different ages of the injuries and things like that, it's like, oh, it wasn't an accident. That's it's likely this is ongoing and continuing abuse, but, yeah, it's often, it's often neglect. When we get animals in to our service that are boarding, that's usually the case. They just haven't had the vet care there. They've got terrible dental disease, their coats are matted, they've got flea infestations, and, you know, they're showing signs of having the psychological abuse. So that's probably a lot of what we actually see in relation to DV.
Brian: And Lauren, as an inspector, you would have ... you mentioned you would have seen these situations firsthand?
Lauren: Yeah, I did. There's one case in particular that is at the forefront of my mind during this conversation, and I received a report about a Maltese dog that had received a clipper injury. When I interviewed the person involved in that injury, the story didn't make a lot of sense how the injury unfolded, in their words. So I did further investigation and had a veterinary expert look at the injury, and they determined that it wasn't a clipper injury, and it was likely a stab wound to the spine of that dog. So there was obviously in a proper, you know, very serious investigation into that case. I spoke to the owner, and after building rapport with her, she disclosed that she was also experiencing violence and had a massive bruise on her leg. And at that point, I explained that this was beyond in terms of my powers and the scope of what I could enforce, this was now beyond me, and that I would have to refer it to Victoria Police. I did support her throughout I provided a witness statement to Victoria Police so they could prosecute under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act as well. The perpetrator ended up fleeing the country. There is a warrant out for their arrest. The dog ended up being paralysed from the waist down, which was really sad, but the victim survivor continued to look after that little dog, and has a wheelchair now, and is doing, is doing well, but yeah, it was a pretty, a pretty horrible incident to be involved with.
Brian: It must be harrowing doing this work. But then also, you see the importance of these animals as part of their family, as their support and psychological support for the victim, the human victims as well. That must be a very heightened emotional state that you're left in.
Lauren: Oh, definitely. And I think we touched on before, a lot of people delay leaving. I think it's 1 in 3 women delay leaving a violent household for fear of what's going to happen to their pets. And again, first hand experience, we work with human welfare agencies that tell us that people are returning to dangerous situations because their pets remain at home. And yeah, it's hard work. We work very closely with human welfare services to try and find the best outcome for everyone. But yeah, it's ... it's tough.
Brian: And Gina, you would have seen many cases like this in your career as well.
Gina: I have, and as I mentioned earlier, you know, most of the cases where there's environmental neglect or the children, there's cumulative harm. If there are pets, they are suffering the identical, if not worse, set of circumstances, as are the children. But what I'm curious about, Lauren, what are you (inaudible) to go in and inspect, like if you and where do the reports usually come from? There's sort of two questions there. But do you have the rights? Say, police officer, you can go in an unannounced home visit? What happens there?
Lauren: No, so you have implied consent, so you can knock on a front door if they invite you in, you know you can go in. If you want to enter a dwelling, typically, and you don't have consent to enter, you would have need to get a warrant for that. So you would apply, obviously, to the Magistrates Court, and, yeah, get a search warrant.
Gina: And does that happen more often than not? Or are people cooperative?
Lauren: Look, in my experience, when I was an inspector, people were pretty cooperative. And I ... you know, it did happen from time to time that I would have to apply for a warrant, but people were typically cooperative. This was a few years ago, I know now, unfortunately, it seems that there are more abuse and violent attacks directed towards our inspectorate, which is awful. No one should experience that. And in terms of who reports, it's varied. Sometimes it's victim, survivor might make that call. It could be a neighbour. It could be someone just witnessing something walking past. Or just seeing something out and about that just didn't feel right. And I would always encourage people to make a report. So, you know, call (03) 9224 2222 for Victoria, and make that report.
Brian: Domestic violence is a is a big focus at the moment in the country, and there's a lot to be done, very broadly speaking, but looking at this, and we've mentioned it before, tell us again, what the RSPCA is doing in this space to help families and companion animals.
Ann-Margret: So in New South Wales, we have a domestic violence program that will ultimately preserve the human animal bond and keep the family together, where we provide temporary boarding or foster care, veterinary care, support with impound fees or transport. And also, we have the Safe Families framework, where we assist human crisis refuges to become pet inclusive, so training staff, helping them to develop their infrastructure and get, you know, the policies so that families can stay together when they are leaving violence.
Brian: And in Victoria, Lauren?
Lauren: So, RSPCA Victoria offer emergency boarding. This is subject to capacity, so as a result, we have partnered with private boarding facilities so that we can safely keep pets away from perpetrators. We also work with human welfare services. So again, as Ann Margret said, we kind of work with them to really advocate for more pet-inclusive housing. We work with their emergency accommodation providers to ensure that they're properly set up, that they've got training so they can quickly address problem behaviors. And so if the pets are quite stressed, we may see some undesirable behavior, and we try and work with them as best as we can by providing behavioral support and other resources. Recently, we've been working with a couple of family violence organisations, and have been providing pet packs so ensuring that they have the resources they need, including some pheromone sprays to reduce stress so Feliway and Adaptil and things like that. So we either have them at the emergency accommodation provider site, or we provide them to caseworkers, or, in some cases, the victims themselves. So if they do need to flee in a hurry, that they can just grab it and go, we know that they're not going to be necessarily in a position to get all the things that their pets need, so we try and do what we can so that they are able to leave quickly.
Brian: And this might be a very big and broad question, and hard to answer, but what is the way forward?
Gina: Can I say that from a legal perspective, animals are treated as property, considered as property under the Family Law Act under intervention orders, obviously, they're standalone legislation to protect animals, but in terms of family violence, under that banner, they're not considered as sentient beings, and they are property. And I think really what has to happen, and I think that goes back to your question about, should they be included as a protected, well, they're not a person, but as a protected being under intervention orders and until the law considers or recognises legally that animals are sentient and that they are capable of feeling fear, pain and emotional distress, then really just things will stay where they are. That's where it's got to go. That's a reform for the law.
Brian: Which has implications well beyond domestic violence as well. And Lauren and Ann-Margret, do you have any thoughts on where this needs to go? It's a great argument from Gina.
Ann-Margret: Hard to go beyond that, other than I think all services, you know, human service providers need to consider the entire family and in any of their policies or their service provision. So yeah, that animals are an intimate part of that family, providing emotional support, so they need to be included.
Brian: Lauren?
Lauren: The only other thing that I would encourage is that we continue having this conversation and we really talk about that link, that link between animal cruelty, violence towards children and other members of the household, it's intrinsic. I know we're talking about it in society now, but I think we can do more to really make sure people are well aware of how important pets are to people, the dynamic relationship, and that that link is very much there. And I think we can do better in educating the wider public on that.
Brian: And you bring up a very important point that could be a topic of an entire other episode of this ...
Lauren: Absolutely!
Brian: ... that link between violence towards animals and violence towards humans. So, I mean, that's it's well established. There's studies going back decades that attest to this. So it's a very important point. But for now, thank you all for your time today. Let's hope we can move towards and implement these solutions to eradicate this scourge of domestic violence for the for the benefit of all. Thank you again, everyone.
All: Thank you.
Brian: We've been talking today with RSPCA Victoria Community Outreach Manager, Dr Lauren Roberts, RSPCA, New South Wales, Senior Manager Outreach, Education and Crisis Support Programs, Dr Anne Margret-Withers and esteemed barrister and media personality, Gina Liano, and thank you for listening. If you or someone you know is in need of assistance in a domestic violence situation, please call the National Domestic Family and Sexual Violence Counseling Information and Support Service on 1800 RESPECT (1800 737 732), or visit 1800respect.org.au. If you would like any more information on the plight of animals caught up in domestic violence, you can visit the RSPCA website at rspca.org.au. You can also subscribe to the podcast series at the website, or all the usual podcast suspects. I'm Brian Daly, and I look forward to your company next time on RSPCA Australia's Great and Small Talk.
