Transcript
Georgie: All dogs can and do occasionally bite. Biting is a behaviour that is somewhat normal for ... for the dog as a species, so looking at prevention and and owning dogs responsibly is the way that we can avoid biting and injury to people.
Brian: Hello and welcome to RSPCA Australia's Great and Small Talk, where we discuss the pressing issues animals face in Australia. I'm Brian Daly, and today we're discussing the topic of aggression in dogs, how to deal with aggressive behaviour, minimise aggressive tendencies and avoid getting bitten. And to give us all the information, we're joined by our experts, Georgie Caspar, Senior Manager of Animal Care at RSPCA New South Wales, and Dr Gabrielle Carter, Veterinary Behaviour and Rehabilitation Specialist at RSPCA Victoria. Georgie and Gabrielle, welcome to the podcast.
Both: Thanks, Brian. Thank you for having us.
Brian: Now studies suggest Australia records around 100,000 dog bite incidents each year, resulting in over 2,000 hospitalisations, and as we see in media reports, children are quite often the victims. I think anyone who's ever had a dog knows that even the most placid and friendly dogs can have good days and bad days or end up in situations where they can show some aggression. So Georgie and Gabrielle, firstly, what causes or contributes to aggressive behaviour in dogs?
Gabrielle: I think the main determinants of behaviour are genetics, learning and the environment. So genetics, you know, will determine, to some extent, some characteristics of the dog, so for example, how bold or fearful they might be, and it may also determine their propensity to use, you know, flight or fight responses if they're feeling scared or threatened. And these are important, because I'd say 95% of dogs that present to me with aggression, the motivation for that aggression is fear or anxiety, but I think it's really important to remember that these characteristics can also be influenced by learning. So you might have a dog that's particularly fearful and also has a strong tendency to want to run away. It may be scared of other dogs and tries to run away, but hey it's on leash, so it can't run away. This dog then learns to use aggression, because the flight options gone, so they use the fight option. And often what happens is that when they do that, they show aggression towards the other dog, they get taken away, or the other dog gets taken away. So the outcome is actually good from their perspective. And so learning now kicks in, and we have a dog whose genetics said, run away, but is now going, no, I'm using aggression, because that actually works really well. And then, of course, we have an environment influence on behaviour. So we might have this dog that's a little bit unsure about interactions with other dogs, for example, and if it was to meet another very calm dog that had really good social skills, it might do absolutely fine, but if you were to throw this dog into a dog park with some, you know, boisterous and in your face dogs, that's when things could go quite wrong, and that's more likely to induce aggression. So those three factors, genetics, learning and environment, and they all come together to determine the dog's likelihood of using aggression.
Georgie: Yeah, I think Gabrielle's covered it perfectly. And I suppose what I could add to that might be, when we're talking about aggression, thinking about what that means, are we talking about a dog that is trying to bite? Are we talking about the underlying emotions of that animal at the time and then recognising them and responding to them appropriately? So I think when we don't do that, it plays into that whole picture of genetics, learning and environment, but also the observation of how the animal is presenting that in context at the time.
Gabrielle: Mm, I think that's really important too, Georgie. One of my pet hates is people calling dogs aggressive. So they're sort of labelling, they're making a judgement about this dog's, you know, personality and characteristics, whereas, in fact, you know, I'd much prefer to talk about aggressive behaviour. I think that's much more relevant. It acknowledges the aggression, but it also sort of prompts us to try and understand why was that dog showing aggression in that context? You could have a dog that's really good with kids, used to having lots of kids around, very playful, very friendly, very tolerant, but one day there's a party, and there's six kids that have confined that dog in a corner of a room, and the dog can't escape, and one of them decides to stick a pencil down his ear. You know, that dog bites the kid, and I think that's probably a reasonable response from the dog, but that dog shouldn't, in my mind, be labelled as an aggressive dog. It's actually been a really tolerant, really patient dog. And so I think saying yes, it did show aggressive behaviour in this context with good reason.
Brian: You mentioned genetics and certain breeds have been portrayed as being more aggressive than others. But is this reality?
Gabrielle: I think there's a couple of factors that we should note in regards to the genetic influences. What the science tells us is that there's actually distinct differentiation between breeds in their behaviour profiles. We can have Kelpies, you know, they're big working dogs. They need a job. They're very active, they're highly aroused. They're go, go, go. And we might have Cavalier King Charles Spaniels that are, you know, I just want to hang out with you, lying on the couch, that sort of thing. So behaviourally, these breeds present quite differently. However, we actually know that there's more behavioural variation within a particular breed than there is between breeds. So that's ... that's to say that if we look at Kelpies, for example, yeah, there are some that are really active, but actually there's some Kelpies that are like, no, I just want to lie on the couch next to you all day and have a nice time. And there's some Cavaliers that actually want to run around the backyard all day chasing birds. They want a job, and they're very active, and they don't, they don't cope well, just lying on the ... on the couch. And I think this behaviour overlap is really, really important, because if we were to take those Kelpies that are couch potatoes and breed from them within a few generations, we can change the behavioural characteristics of Kelpies, certainly within that area of the world. And so we can change behaviour profiles. And I think that's particularly important, if there is a strong genetic propensity in a breed for aggression, that we have the opportunity to breed that out. And in fact, that has happened. You know, when breeders get together, they've been able to reduce or eliminate both behavioural and medical problems within the breed.
Georgie: I was actually just going to say Gabrielle that I have personal experience of that, because I live with a Cavalier that is very sensitive, and he's treated very carefully, because I'm fairly sure that if he wasn't that he could harm someone and so, and that's something that we've managed for his whole life because he has underlying medical issues, and it's something that we have to look at, I guess, when we're evaluating dogs within the shelter, isn't it? You know, we, we sort of are aware of what maybe some of their traits might be, but we're very much looking at them as an individual when we're trying to build a picture up of who the dog is and what sort of environment they might transition to in a home, so that they're not overwhelmed and they're able to make good decisions or good responses when they're not sure about something they come across. So ...
Gabrielle: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even, you know, in the private consultations that I see working with the general public. You know, it's always an individual assessment, and I try and put breed to the back of my mind, because, yeah, they're individuals that we're treating.
Brian: So in that regard, the push for breed-specific legislation is really not the solution.
Georgie: All dogs can, and do, occasionally bite. Biting is a behaviour that is somewhat normal for ... for the dog as a species. So I think what's important is all dog owners really need to understand that, and understand their responsibilities as a dog owner. So, you know, rather than looking at the dog as an ... or aggressive dogs, it would be more appropriate and arguably more successful to look at if a dog is showing dangerous behaviour, then there needs to be a response to that. But in fact, looking at prevention and owning dogs responsibly is the way that we can avoid biting and injury to people.
Gabrielle: One of the examples I like to use, I like to throw this one out for people to consider. I'm going to describe two breed behaviour profiles to you. So the first breed is not very friendly and not very playful. It's difficult to train, and it frequently shows aggression. Breed two is very friendly, very playful, very easy to train, and only occasionally, will show aggression. So if I said to you, you know, which one of these breeds should we legislate against, you'll probably select breed one. Well, breed one's a Chihuahua, and I can tell you now you're never going to see two hours on the list of dangerous dogs. Breed two is a Labrador. And yeah. In fact, if we look at, you know, dangerous dog lists around the world, we can sometimes find Labradors on that list. And the reason is not because Labradors are more aggressive. If it's just that if they do bite, they're more likely to cause injury than that little Chihuahua that might be biting you every day. And that also leads us on to where the data on dangerous dog comes from, and a lot of that data comes from hospitals. So we have doctors and nurses who aren't trained in dog identification, deciding what breed these dogs are that are causing the bites. And often these people may only know five or six breeds, so all you're going to see is five or six breeds. And perhaps that dog that looks a bit like a Labrador was, in fact, you know, a Rottweiler cross, or a German Shepherd cross, or a Pointer cross and I think that also leads to some lack of fairness, shall we say, or lack of accuracy, and it makes a little bit of a farce of breed-specific legislation, in some ways.
Georgie: I think that's a really good point in terms of identifying breeds, because I think that's what, you know, this is a really contentious topic, and these discussions are happening globally at the moment, really. And I think it is that one of the challenges is identifying the breeds. There was a study in the US that looked at people with dog experience identifying Pit Bull types, and what they found was that a fifth of the dogs generally identified with people heritage breeds were missed by staff, and then a third of the dogs lacking the DNA for people type were misidentified by at least one person. So it's quite, I mean, I guess we would say a lot of these bully breeds are quite ambiguous as a breed, almost. And so then you come back to, how do we define the breed or type? And you know, we don't often have, you know, pedigree information for these breeds to actually identify them. We might have mismatings, we might have cross breeds. And then we go to how the dog looks, well, how a dog looks at as a juvenile or as a puppy is something sometimes really different to the way that they look as an adult. In Australia, we have a lot of cross breed dogs. It's a very common type of dog to have, so that's unrealistic, you know, is an option, really. And then I think when we're trying to assess breeds, it's often a best guess, you know, you sort of looking at the shape of the dog, and I guess the behaviour of the dog, or what it looks and you're making a guess based on what's in front of you. And people have looked at this in the academic literature, and it's a difficult conversation, because I think it comes back to, well, how do we define what actually is the breed type or the dangerous type of dog that you're wanting to legislate against?
Brian: So what are the better prevention strategies?
Gabrielle: So if we're to accept that genetics, learning and environment the main determinants of dogs behaviour, then that leads us to the conclusion that we can change behaviour through responsible breeding, human and dog education and some environmental management, and if we don't do all of those things, we're unlikely to get a good result. So what would this look like? So some regulation of breeding in regards to aggressive behavioural tendencies, I think, is warranted. And then we need to look at education of carers and dogs, and for dogs, that's going to involve some very good, positive and appropriate early socialisation. And I will stress that that socialisation needs to be ongoing. It's no use taking a dog to puppy classes, getting it really well socialised with other dogs, and then it doesn't see any for six months. You know, it's like sending a kid to kindergarten, home schooling them, not letting them see any other kids for primary school, and then expecting them to be behaviourally normal at secondary school. We also want our dogs hanging out with the right group and not learning inappropriate behaviours. So, you know, we don't want our fearful little Cavy getting bowled over by Labrador because it's probably going to become fearful of Labradors in the future. So I think this sort of combined approach of looking at education and some regulation around breeding is probably going to be helpful. And then we should also think about, you know, how we manage dogs in the environment. You know, if they're saying, I don't want to go there, if you've got an introverted dog and it really doesn't want to go to the dog park, we probably shouldn't be forcing it into that sort of situation. And the other one thing I would add to that is we should be using, and I would strongly endorse the use of positive reinforcement training, because the literature also shows us that if we use confrontational training, about 25% of dogs are going to respond with aggression. So some good education, I think, can go a long way.
Georgie: And I think that education is also about, yeah, again, understanding the ... what the dog is trying to communicate from their perspective. I'm doing a PhD in post adoption, so looking at our dogs in the home environment and following them over time and talking to people about why they've chosen to have a dog and how they sort of fit into their family and what relationship they want that to look like. And so I think what I'm starting to see is that we all bring our own beliefs and values to why we want to have a dog and to the relationship that we want to have, and we assume sometimes that the dog will fit into that niche with that without being a sort of sentient creature and having emotions and feelings and experiences and genetics and all the things that Gabrielle's talked about, that can mean that it doesn't always, you know, There can be road bumps along the way to that, and so I think it's when we talk about education, it's it's recognising that that the dogs have emotions, and those emotions have evolved to help them stay alive, and so they can feel good, or they can feel uncomfortable. And it's being able to look at some of the behaviours and understand what the what feelings are under underpinning that. Because I do think sometimes we misinterpret that, and I think that you know when we go in, or I'm sure when Gabrielle sees or works in the clinic, you know you in hindsight, you can almost see when you have a problem. You can see how that problem has developed, but it's not often as easy to identify it before it happens.
Gabrielle: You know, I'm really glad that you brought up the concept of emotions and feelings, and I think we need to acknowledge those. And there's two good reasons why we need to do it, because our feelings are a big driver of behaviour, and so that's really important that we recognise that, because if we can pick stuff up early on that the dog's feeling uncomfortable or not sure, then we can take action to prevent an escalation to something like aggression. And the other thing is that feelings, which is your you know, subjective experience of the world is actually how we, you know, get an insight into the dog's welfare. So from a welfare perspective, it's really important that we try and get an understanding of their emotions. So what are those signs to look for in a dog's body language that hint at maybe feeling aggressive or threatened enough to bite. People often talk about what we call the ladder of aggression, and this is a sort of textbook escalation of behaviours that lead towards aggression. And so I'll run through it briefly, but it doesn't mean that all dogs directly follow these steps, but there's important steps along the way for handlers to recognise. So often it'll start off with the dog being signs of being a little bit unsure. So we may see signs like licking lips or yawning. Sometimes the dogs will be showing that they're a little bit scared, so the tail will be tucked, the ears will be back, the body will be low to the ground. They may even be trying to back away. We sometimes then see an escalation to what we call appeasement behaviours. So these are behaviours designed to try and reduce this perception of threat. So dogs will roll over on their bellies. They may start licking people a lot. These are all saying, Hey, I just want to be friendly. I'm not a threat to you. They're showing you their very vulnerable abdomen. So it's probably in these dogs, not a good idea to go and pet them. That's not what they're after. That would probably seem like you're attacking them. Then if all this isn't working, then we might start seeing some more threatening behaviours, so things like growling, perhaps snarling. So these are warning behaviours, and we really like dogs that show warning behaviours, because it means we can say, okay, let's get out of here. So if, again, they're not working, dogs may progress to what we call air snapping, which is, you know, lunging perhaps, and snapping in the air. They're not actually making contact, so they're really pushing the other dog and say, no, listen, mate, I'm really serious here, and if that doesn't work, then we're likely to see biting. Now, as I said, not all dogs are going to show all those signs, and some will jump from being fearful to, you know, showing those early warning signs quite quickly. But I think for dog guardians to be conscious and aware of recognising this body language. I know from experience, it just goes a long, long way to preventing aggression, and it builds a much, much better relationship between the handler and the dog, because they've got a way of communicating, and they're responding to what each other, you know, what the dog's telling you, and they're saying, oh, thank god you took me away from that situation. That is so good. I love you.
Georgie: I like the way you explained that because the dog is trying to solve a problem, it is feeling threatened or frustrated, and that's why, you know, when we're talking about what is the behaviour, rather than labelling the dog, we're trying to really understand what happened, or what's the learning history, or what happened in that moment? How is this dog trying to find relief? So if it is trying to solve a problem and it's feeling frustrated, it might solve the problem by becoming confrontational. If it's feeling frightened, then it might solve ... it wants to create distance. They're quite different emotionally, but they will still end, or they may still end with the dog biting. And so I think, you know, even in the latter, there are different responses there that the dog could jump to. And I think you make a great point Gabrielle, in terms of looking at some of the myths, in terms of what we believe dogs are trying to tell us when we approach them. So the rolling over on the you know, and exposing the belly is one. The other assumption people have approaching a dog they don't know is that a dog that is wagging its tail is friendly, you know. And you're talking about that appeasement behaviour Gabrielle. And then the other one, I think, is a dog that is approaching you to sniff you want you to touch it. And those are three things that I think often when we are talking about bite prevention, we're talking about approaching a dog that you don't know. You need to take note of how the dog's wagging its tail. I wouldn't touch a dog and think it wanted a belly rub if it had rolled over in front of me, and I would allow a dog to sniff me and get some information and remain very still. And I think we're going to talk about consent testing at some point, which is allowing the dog to have some autonomy and agency, and whether it approaches you, whether it stays near you, so allowing it to get a bit of information and then by sniffing at you, because that is one of the main ways that dogs make sense of the world. And then, once they have done that, if they stay within your company, then you could say hello. You could put your hand down and just scratch their chest. And then after three seconds, take your hand away and see what they do. Look at those really subtle behaviours. Are they looking away? Is that? Are they avoiding you? Are they walking away? Or are they then showing you that they do want to engage with you? Those are really important things that ...that we should be doing with dogs that we meet, or with dogs that we don't know, and also observing our own dogs more to see those subtle signs of what do they actually like and not like? Or are they tolerating things, or are they actively taking part in situations?
Gabrielle: One of the things I'd like to add to it is one of my sort of pet hates, really, is people patting dogs on top of the head. In my experience, about 50% of dogs don't like being patted on top of the head. It's convenient for us, but I think it's a bit scary. We're leaning over the top of them. We're patting, you know, I wouldn't like it. I find yet patting them on the side of the neck or on the chest is a much, much, much better way to go. In my experience with with clients, giving them a little bit of an insight into body language is really, really helpful. So I can spend three seconds saying, if your dog is yawning or licking its lips, it's probably feeling a little bit stressed or uncomfortable, that's it. Three seconds, and they will come back the next week and go, oh, he gets really stressed on the busy road. So I've decided to now walk him around the streets and avoid the busy roads. So like, wow, you have just improved that dog's quality of life immensely. And so it's not hard, it's not hard reading, you know, dog body language in lots of ways. And the other one I'll add in is, yeah, the tail wagging one is a really big one, Georgie. I have seen plenty of dogs wagging their tail and showing aggression at the same time and ... and attacking. So, yep, it means they're ready to interact in some way. But it doesn't necessarily mean they're friendly and you need to look at other parts of the body to determine that one. And I guess a big thing to look for is the stiffness in the body. If you're being friendly, you're going to be all loose and waggy and the bum, sort of, you know, rocking from side to side. Everything's loose ... in a dog that's not sure, or potentially thinking about aggression, they're going to be a lot stiffer. They're going to stand tall. There's going to be a lot of muscle tension. You might see some wrinkling in the face. There's muscle tension in the face, around the lips, over the, you know, on the forehead. So don't get fooled by that wagging tail.
Brian: And what can you do if you find yourself in a situation with a dog displaying some aggressive behaviour?
Gabrielle: Well, my advice if you do get caught out with a dog showing aggression, the first thing is, don't panic. I think the more agitated and activity that we show, the more stimulating or more arousing that is to the dogs, you start become more unpredictable. So staying still, I think, is really important, and don't yell and scream, because that's sort of quite arousing as well. You want to try and seek help in any way that you can. So if there is, you know, somebody nearby. It's a quiet call if you can, if you've got your phone, then I think, call someone. But don't do any sudden movements. Try and protect yourself if you can. So get behind some sort of barrier, put your bag up in front of you, anything like that. But do these movements slowly and carefully, and of course, watch the dog. Most of the time if you stay still and don't do anything, the dogs will back off and just take your time and see whether you can slowly move out of that situation. If you have a dog that is really rushing at you and is really going to attack you, then you should do all you can to protect yourself and our vulnerable parts are the front of our body with a lot more muscle on our backs and also our heads, our hands. These are things we want to protect, so try and sort of turn your back more towards the dog. Keep an eye on it as well. Don't do any direct staring, because in dog language, direct staring can be perceived as threatening behaviour. So you just sort of, you know, you want to watch the dog, obviously, but you want to do that sort of a little bit out of that peripheral vision, yeah, and try and yeah, duck your head, turn your body to the side, try and keep your hands contained and, and probably an important one. I mean, we're getting into gory stuff here, but a really serious dog is going to try and drag you to the ground, because on the ground, they've got a lot more control of you. So if you can remain upright, really try and do that. I'm sure, Georgie, you do lots of training?
Georgie: Yeah, I mean, I would say if, if you did get dragged to the ground, I guess the only thing I would say, is to roll into a ball and try and keep your hands and your that front part of your body tucked up and safe, as safe as you can in that ... in that moment.
Gabrielle: But hopefully that won't happen.
Georgie: Yeah, exactly.
Gabrielle: Good at reading body language, and you'll be out of that situation before it happens.
Brian: We do hope so. And on that point, we've touched on a few ways that companion animal guardians can be educated and look for these behaviours. Is there anything else that you ... you'd want to cover off to minimise behavioural issues or aggressive tendencies in their dog?
Georgie: I think Gabrielle summed it up really beautifully at the start, where she was talking about the experiences, the genetics and the learning come together to create the dog that we have in front of us. For me, I think it is, again, it comes back to education, but it's also identifying where your dog feels safe and allowing them to retreat to that area, perhaps having an area in the house that you don't go near them when they're eating, that they can go there. So I talked a little bit in the beginning about my personal experience with a dog that I live with. He has a baby gate with a cat portal in it, and so at all times, he has a room in the house that he can retreat to, and nobody will go in there and touch him when he does that. And so that makes him feel safe. And over time, he chooses to go in there when he's feeling uncomfortable. It's a good place. And something as simple as that, or seemingly simple as that, has a huge impact on his emotional capacity and the feelings that he has to cope when things become challenging for him. So I think it is making sure that we are responsible, but then also really understanding how our dogs feel safe, how to help them cope when they're feeling unsafe, from their perspective, not necessarily from ours, and then having some I guess, management in place, whether it's training so they understand cues, whether it's allowing them to, or helping them to make good decisions, whether it's in engaging a qualified behaviourist, seeing a veterinary behaviourist. You know, there's a lot of information out there now, and certainly, you know, we have lots of information at RSPCA, where you can find out about how to read your dog's body language. What are they trying to communicate?
Gabrielle: When you were talking about your your baby gate? I love that idea, and I guess it sort of brings up an issue that's sort of a bit controversial sometimes, about crate training. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, I don't want my dog in a crate. And that seems cruel to me. And certainly, you know, if you just throw a dog in there and lock it up, that's not a nice thing for that dog. However, a lot of crates can be conditioned to be the safe place for dogs. So for example, you know, the dog may be uncomfortable. I've got a number of clients like this. The dog's uncomfortable with visitors in the house. But now what the dog does is take itself off to its crate. It's like going to your bedroom. You know, I'm not coping well, I want some time on my own. I'll just go into my bedroom and I'm shutting the door. So we have this crate that the dog feels is very safe in it. And it's the same principles, if the dog's in the crate, nobody goes near them in that crate, nobody tries to pat them. If you want to interact, you call the dog out, so they make a choice to come out and interact with you. You build up a really positive association by feeding them really good treats in there, throwing toys in there, having a great comfortable bed in there. It can be in a social area of the house, so the dog's not missing out, but it's probably not in a sort of thoroughfare area, it's somewhere just ... just slightly removed, where the dog can feel safe. And we don't need to confine them in there, because the dogs are making the choice to go in there so the door can stay open. They're also portable. So if you move to go to someone else's place, you've got a safe place for your dog, or you go to an Airbnb, it's really quite handy. And I guess the other thing Georgie, which you touched on, is, you know, if you're seeing problems, get help early on. There's some very good reward-based qualified and experienced behavioural trainers out there. Or if you need something more, then, yeah, we have our veterinary behaviourists, and we can help out a lot of these animals, and some of them do truly have mental health issues. You know, they have real problems with anxiety, real problems with impulse control, and we can help these individuals.
Georgie: Yeah, just to add to that, and probably the first thing I should have said, Brian was that if you are experiencing problems, certainly your vet is the first place to go, because research tells us, and I'm sure Gabrielle could tell us that in many cases, there is an underpinning pain is a real contributor to behaviours that we're talking about. So I think it's important to rule that out, or to be aware of that and to acknowledge that as part of the treatment.
Gabrielle: Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Georgie. I really appreciate you mentioning pain. And to be honest, you know, if I look at my current caseload, I reckon about, you know, I'm guessing here, but I'd say about 30% of my cases have some underlying pain issues, and sometimes just treating that pain will eliminate the behaviour problems. If it doesn't completely eliminate it, it makes it much easier to treat. So bear in mind, again, aggression is often based in fear and anxiety, and if you're in pain, you don't necessarily want people patting you or other dogs wanting to play with you, and so you know, this can be a fuel for aggression. The other thing that we know is this sort of interaction between mind and body in that if you have pain, it tends to make you more anxious. Also, if you're an anxious individual, you tend to feel pain more and so I think there's some really good motivations to make sure that we're managing pain appropriately.
Georgie: And the other the last thing, the last point that I would make is also look at the age of the dog, because adolescence is a challenging time for human and non-human animals, so we tend to be very risk taking at certain ages, and dogs are the same. They will go through an adolescence that might mean they make terrible decisions and they are risk taking, and that can be really challenging for owners. But you know, if we look often at the ages of dogs that are coming into our shelters, they're very often within that adolescent period for a reason. And so I think it is looking at everything, the emotional capacity of the dog, the learning history, understanding their behaviour and the way that what they're communicating, and knowing where they feel safe, and then also looking at it from their perspective of what they're going through and getting help appropriately.
Gabrielle: And I'll, I'll stand up for the other end of the age group with the those dogs that are getting older, sometimes we see increasing aggression, increasing anxiety at these times. And I think, yes, pain can be one contributing factor, but I also think loss of vision, loss of hearing, these are going to make you feel much more vulnerable. Maybe you're not as mobile as you were. I certainly am experiencing this. And you become you just feel more vulnerable. And so situations that you could previously deal with become more challenging. You know, we certainly know in people that you know, by the time you're 90 years of age, you pretty well have anxiety and or depression. And I think it's part of that, that ageing process. And of course, we can always throw cognitive dysfunction in there as well. So yeah, different challenges for different ages.
Brian: Well, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much, Gabrielle and Georgie. It's been great talking about this important issue. Because, you know, with nearly 70% of households in Australia having pets, so many of us around dogs every day. So being able to recognise and minimise these aggressive behaviours will ... will go a long way to helping keep people and animals safer. So thanks again for being with us today.
Georgie: I enjoyed it. Thank you.
Gabrielle: Pleasure. Yeah, thanks.
Brian: We've been talking today with Georgie Caspar, Senior Manager of Animal Care at RSPCA New South Wales, and Dr Gabrielle Carter, Veterinary Behaviour and Rehabilitation Specialist from RSPCA Victoria. And thank you for listening. If you would like any more information on aggressive behaviour in dogs, you can visit the RSPCA website at rspca.org.au. You can also subscribe to the podcast series at the website, or all the usual podcast suspects. I'm Brian Daly, and I look forward to your company next time on RSPCA Australia's Great and Small Talk.
